Simulposted With Thomas Paine’s Corner
Vivisectors J. David Jentsch and Dario Ringach (UCLA Pro-Test/Speaking of Research) have consistently and adamantly refused to defend the scientific validity of mutilating and torturing animals in secluded, non-descript laboratories. Most recently, the two “researchers” ran from the public forum offered them by CNN and the opportunity to engage in civil debate with Dr. Jerry Vlasak (trauma surgeon) and Dr. Ray Greek (retired physician & author). Rather, they are waging an intense one-sided propaganda campaign, determined to keep their true agenda, as well as their barbaric atrocities, hidden far away from public view.
Since they refuse to discuss the science, TPC and NIO have tried to advance a dialogue in several other areas. We will be publishing a series of articles underscoring the lies, shameless lack of ethics, and illogic that propels this insidious community of terrorists.
Speaking of Research: Their Agenda is Money, Not Science
Jason Miller and Camille Marino initiated the following conversation with Tom Holder in an effort to openly discuss a critical issue: that the Speaking of Research community exists to advance the capitalist agenda of pharma. But like Jentsch, Tom has no interest in truth. The discussion that follows is complete and unedited.
From: Jason Miller, Camille Marino
To: Tom Holder
October 21, 2009 1:15 p.m.
Tom,
A lot of the editorializing and personal attacks do little to foster a productive dialogue. It may be beneficial, therefore, to establish a line of communication. In an effort to understand you and your positions within the Speaking of Research community, we hope you will entertain a single question:
Do you receive any money or payment in any kind for defending and promoting the vivisection industry?
We look forward to your response.
Jason & Camille
From: Tom Holder
To: Jason Miller, Camille Marino
October 21, 2009 1:29 p.m.
Dear Jason and Camille,
I do not believe that our respective blogs are the most productive places for dialogue – thus I will use these email addresses in future for issues such as the phone number instance. In that sense we have email as a line of communication.
Do I receive any money or payment for defending research?
No I do not. If I give a lecture I ask that all my travel costs be reimbursed (since I’m usually travelling from the UK). On occasion (and certainly not always) I receive a small honarium for speaking - this is not because I ask for it, but because they tend to give all speakers this fee (this is more normal for conferences that other one off talks).
I currently have another job in the UK that is not linked to the issue of animal research, it is from this that I make my living.
Regards,
Tom
From: Jason Miller, Camille Marino
To: Tom Holder
October 21, 2009 4:00 p.m.
Tom,
Thank you for your response.
We, too, are far more comfortable addressing this privately.
We are in receipt of strong evidence suggesting that individuals in the pharmaceutical industry finance your activism.
We are not concerned with the nominal fees garnered for speaking engagements.
It is evident from our information that you are advancing an agenda on behalf of entities who need to remain anonymous. There is not much more we can reveal without compromising our source.
We know you have a personal stake in this issue.
If you share shed some light on this dynamic, we are willing to share a few details with you.
Jason & Camille
From: Tom Holder
To: Jason Miller, Camille Marino
October 21, 2009 5:08 p.m.
Jason and Camille,
I’m not sure what I can say – I have never been paid by anyone in the pharmaceutical industry.
My personal stake in this issue is my health (not that I have any pressing health issues) – to see animal research abolished is to risk future treatments that may benefit me and those close to me (and just about everyone else).
I have no idea what sources you think you have (and I suspect this is a shot in the dark whereby you were hoping I would admit some dark truth) but I have no financial stake in this issue – not that I need to prove this to you.
Regards
Tom
From: Jason Miller, Camille Marino
To: Tom Holder
October 21, 2009 7:50 p.m.
Tom,
Didn’t your mother teach you that “honesty is the best policy?”
Our original question was, “Do you receive any money or payment in any kind for defending and promoting the vivisection industry?”
We also wrote, “We are in receipt of strong evidence suggesting that individuals in the pharmaceutical industry finance your activism.”
You wrote, “I’m not sure what I can say – I have never been paid by anyone in the pharmaceutical industry.“
The truth is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_for_Medical_Progress
In Spring 2008 the organization awarded Tom Holder, the spokesman for Pro-Test, the Michael D. Hayre fellowship in public outreach[1]. This allowed Holder to move to the US[2], and with the support of AMP, set up Speaking of Research, a campus-oriented group supporting animal research with similar tactics to Pro-Test. In July 2009 AMP announced three new Hayre Fellows to work on local and national advocacy efforts[3]
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Americans_for_Medical_Progress
Americans for Medical Progress (AMP) is an industry-funded organization and front group for the pharmaceutical, animal testing and breeding industries. AMP runs media campaigns targeting animal rights and welfare groups. It is a self described “charitable organization” and tax exempt under the IRS code 501(c)(3). [1]
AMP’s board of directors consists of senior executives and other representatives employed by the pharmaceutical and vivisection industries. They include Charles River, Abbott Laboratories, GlaxoSmithKline, Pfizer, AstraZeneca and Wyeth. [2] Charles River Laboratories, Inc. is the world’s largest supplier of laboratory animals. It has been described as the “General Motors of the laboratory animal industry”. [3] Board members also represent universities and institutions receiving government grants for vivisection. Many corporations and institutions on AMP’s board have amassed a history of gross animal welfare violations in the United States and Europe and are the focus of animal and health advocates.
Those who underwrote the fellowship that enabled your activism represent the “who’s who” of nonhuman animal torturers. If you’re going to shill for morally abhorrent vivisectors, at least own up to it.
You also wrote, “My personal stake in this issue is my health (not that I have any pressing health issues)”
If you are so concerned about your health, why aren’t you a vegan?
Regards,
Jason & Camille
From: Tom Holder
To: Jason Miller, Camille Marino
October 22, 2:04 a.m.
Jason and Camille,
I was brought over to the US by a non-profit organization dealing in outreach (although I find it laughable that Sourcewatch is your special source). For 6 months I was funded by AMP. For the 2 years prior to that in Pro-Test, and the year after in Speaking of Research all my efforts have been unpaid.
With regards to your original question you will note it was in the present tense. I currently, and for the last year, have continued my efforts with Speaking of Research without receiving money or payment from the vivisection industry.
Regards
Tom
From: Jason Miller, Camille Marino
To: Tom Holder
October 22, 3:06 a.m.
Tom,
You underestimate us.
Sourcewatch is not the “source’ to whom our previous email referred.
Would you care to retract your previous statement asserting that “health concerns” propel your activism?
Jason & Camille
From: Tom Holder
To: Jason Miller, Camille Marino
October 22, 3:19 a.m.
Jason and Camille,
No, I began doing this and continue to do this for concerns about the future of medicine. I spent 6 months with AMP because that was the only way I could come out there (and survive financially). AMP do fantastic work in the field of education and outreach.
However I did not work for AMP – I ran my own organization, Speaking of Research, which furthered their aims and mine.
I am afraid I am beginning to suspect your motives for these emails – waiting for some sentence you can pull out of context rather than a real interest in the motivations behind my work.
Regards,
Tom
From: Jason Miller, Camille Marino
To: Tom Holder
October 22, 1:20 p.m.
Tom,
We’re not interested in splitting hairs or playing the Clintonian game of determining what the meaning of the word “is” is.
Whether you utilized the money for personal financial remuneration or simply to finance your activism, the bottom line is that you would not be in the US and Speaking of Research would not exist were it not for a host of morally despicable people and entities—who along with you are complicit in enabling the torture and annihilation of millions of sentient beings.
Fine, here’s a link to AMP’s own site which reveals that this entity, that gave you the seed money to whore for the vivisection industry, is comprised of egregious nonhuman animal torturers:
http://www.amprogress.org/atf/cf/{225f2fb1-fe52-4dde-9f29-dcf47a3d37d1}/AMP_BOARD_9.08.PDF
We’re still waiting for you to explain to us why you are not vegan when you allege that your activism is motivated by concerns for your health. Note how incredibly ironic it is that the consumption of rotting animal flesh (”meat”) causes many of the maladies and diseases which many of your sociopathic associates claim to be trying to mitigate or cure through torturing and murdering nonhuman animals.
It’s such a viscious circle of sadism, isn’t it, Tom? Torture, kill and eat animals. Become diseased because of eating those animals. Torture and kill more animals to try to cure the diseases caused by eating other animals. Imagine how much better off humans and nonhumans would be if we simply left our nonhuman animal brethren alone!
Jason & Camille
From: Tom Holder
To: Jason Miller, Camille Marino
October 22, 3:13 p.m.
Jason,
I’m not interested in having an argument with you over email. It’s not worth my time.
I’m well aware of who is on the board of directors, I’m also aware of AMPs funding. I also know my motives for getting involved have nothing to do with money, it never did (it never paid particularly well). The AMP board of directors have never had ANY control over my activities.
Regards
Tom
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High five on the “reveal”…
Thanks Bea — it’s a travesty.
Animal torture is big business — no one is in this for their “health”.
I see Tom never answered your question in regard to becoming vegan and his health. Again, like his co-workers Jentsch and Ringach, instead of addressing the issue he chose to run from it. He said “it`s not worth my time.”
It seems as if, if there isn`t any money, pain or misery tied in It`s never worth their time.
I guess they just haven`t figured out a way to justify something that there is no justification for, which is pretty strange considering that this is something they do on a regular basis to continue getting their funding for the upkeep of their torcher chamber.
Future generations are going to look back as and wonder how we could have just let these atrocities continue.
Some days I really believe that the only way this will ever end is by an all out bloody revolution. Money and power are never relinquished by the oppressors.
Camille,
You might care to check the definition of “unedited”. You have certainly not reached that milestone.
Tom
Tom,
I’m going to double-check, but I’m fairly certain the entire exchange is there.
Please feel free to correct me and I’ll gladly edit.
This is not about manipulating information; rather, it’s about trying to present the facts as well as illustrate how you tried to avoid the issue.
You are correct camille. We are dealing with the Nazi’s, the morally bankrupt, sub human species of the vivisection industry. These things or people or whatever they are, are too far gone, they are not reachable. They won’t discuss anything they won’t let anyone see what they are doing. We are fighting aliens and androids. They are very sick and very ill. We are fighting ted bundy and jeffrey dahmer. Complete sociopaths, no concept of right or wrong, the inability to think of anything other than themselves. Vivisectionists exhibit extreme mental illness. They will only be stopped by force and violence. Anyone who thinks that these dangerous and mentally ill sociopaths will be stopped by any other means is completely dillusional and out of touch with the severity of the situation.
Nope. Sorry Tom. It’s all there word-for-word.
Let’s not try to rewrite history.
Hello from Russia!
Can I quote a post “No teme” in your blog with the link to you?
yes, polprav – please feel free to link to anything you want.
you just found a new daily reader